Curse

Rah har · Feb 24, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

First of all, i would like to state that this is a little long, and a wall of text. So if you are really interested, i'd like to ask you to pull up a comfy chair and get a drink and maybe a snack.

I'll also break this up a bit, so it focuses on more of the same topic.

Anyway, this started as a letter to ArenaNet as well - So i'll leave it as is.

ALSO NOTICE!!!!!!!!!!! Please don't read, if you can't drop your bonds to your respective side, be it Kurzick or Luxon, and choose instead to disagree with me because you like winning, or otherwise immature and just going to spam/flame this thread.

Thank you, and i give you this wall of text:

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I have reason to believe that the sides of Kurzick and Luxon are imbalanced. I am a hardcore Alliance Battle player and also a fan of the competitive mission Fort Aspenwood. While it is true that some of these imbalances may come from the players themselves, I am not going to complain about how anyone plays the game. I have other reasons to complain about other than my fellow player.

So let’s talk about the competitive mission I play the most. Fort Aspenwood, as lowly as it may seem on the PvP chart, there is still a “meta game” involved, and a lot of people still play this competitive mission, which is nothing to sneeze at or ignore.

Going on with the Fort Aspenwood deal, it seems to me like the mission in itself is weighted towards the kurzicks, player error excluded. Whilst on the Kurzick side, to win a match, you can play any class you want, not be a burden to your team and still win. You don’t have to guard anyone besides the Master Architect, which has a platoon of blocking skills, over one-hundred armor, “Watch Yourself!”, and he is only a short waltz from the respawn point, making him extremely easy to heal and effortless to win. Also, to win on the Kurzick side, you don’t need to run amber at ALL. The meter fills up by itself, over a short period of time (my guess is like ten minutes is the timer?) and nothing else needs to be done besides shooting down turtles and killing players inside the base.

Let’s look at the Luxon side now, shall we? I’ll start with the bases where the turtles are spawned, and move in a direction similar to when you play the mission. The bases where the turtles are spawned are guarded by one level 24 ranger, and a Luxon priest with nothing but protective spirit and a mad craze to wand anything in sight. True, the ranger does have Whirling Defense, which makes it a pain to take over, but one well-off ranger with a longbow could get the job done on the Kurzick side. Sadly, it looks like the Luxon priests need a re-do. They terribly lack in comparison with the Purple and Orange gatekeepers, but at the same time the gatekeepers have a different role. My suggestion is making them up-to-par with the Luxon Monk in the middle respawn point, in between the Orange and Purple points.

The turtles need to be fixed too. The damage reduction (unless it’s a critical hit), The seemingly uninterruptible (still can be interrupted with 2 shots), and the enchantment removal (only removes 1?) are exciting to think of, but the performance of this turtle in itself lacks. While it isn’t shooting into walls and constantly turning around to shoot at a single target, including a spirit behind it, this turtle seems to perform well. However, I can’t help but to compare these to the juggernauts. They have a massive amount of armor, no critical weakness, and have no skills to interrupt besides their extremely effective Juggernaut Toss, which could spell death even for the best monk in the game. Even so, it’s a ½ second cast? (ill get back to you on that and correct it later.) Make these turtles like TRUE engines of war, make their turtle shot more powerful, armor ignoring, or make it have natural resistance to degeneration in the way of natural regeneration, or a massive amount of health to rival that of the juggernaut’s. Make these turtles efficient, make their AI smarter, unable to be blocked by walls and go for key targets such as NPC’s.

These and many other reasons lead me to believe that ArenaNet favors Kurzick. At least, if not favored by ArenaNet itself, favored by the structure of the map and the weakness of the Luxon’s weapon of war, the Siege Turtle, and various small problems that can really turn the tide of the battle quickly. I am depending on ArenaNet to not ignore this matter, and not to blow it aside as if it does not matter, because there are people who play this and see this problem as well, and there are a lot of them.

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ANSWERS TO SOME ANTICIPATED QUESTIONS AND CONCERNS AND/OR Q.Q'S:

Concern- "Fort Aspenwood is not even PvP. Go do HA and stop complaining about little missions like this."

ANSWER: Beleive it or not, a lot of people play this game. you play your HA, and ill stick to my littler, less serious play.

QQ: "TL, DR!!!"

Answer: Been stated. Give up on life, uninstall Windows and throw comp out door.

Question: "You're Luxon aren't you?"

Answer: It is true that i am Luxon. however, i see these problems and wish for them to be levelled out. At the same time i am Luxon, i have been Kurzick on Fort Aspenwood as long as i have been Luxon. And yes, i'm aware of the timers.

Concern: "I think FA is fine as-is. Kurzick and Luxon have the same chance of winning, and i enjoy it how it is."

Answer: A lot of the error of Fort Aspenwood is in the players. But instead of crying about that, i went in beyond and looked at the less-than-thought about other advantages and disadvantages of both sides. I think my reasoning has good foundation, and a strong meaning. A lot has to do with veiwpoints, as well.

Lyssa Apate · Feb 24, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rah har

Make these turtles like TRUE engines of war, make their turtle shot more powerful, armor ignoring, or make it have natural resistance to degeneration in the way of natural regeneration, or a massive amount of health to rival that of the juggernaut’s. Make these turtles efficient, make their AI smarter, unable to be blocked by walls and go for key targets such as NPC’s.

Gee, lets. One hit kills and ALL enchantments removed.

Spawn points are there because you can't expect a Luxon spawn point in the 'fort' now can you?

If you're calling for smarter Turtles, I want smarter Juggernauts that actually attack the little red dots instead of walking back and forth 90% of the time.

If you're calling for better builds on the Luxon Priests, say a WoH hybrid, go for it. But then I'll want the same on my Gate Keepers.

It's cheesy, but it all boils down to who you're grouped with. Like everything, good players make both sides a cakewalk.

Rah har · Feb 24, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyssa Apate

Gee, lets. One hit kills and ALL enchantments removed.

Spawn points are there because you can't expect a Luxon spawn point in the 'fort' now can you?

If you're calling for smarter Turtles, I want smarter Juggernauts that actually attack the little red dots instead of walking back and forth 90% of the time.

If you're calling for better builds on the Luxon Priests, say a WoH hybrid, go for it. But then I'll want the same on my Gate Keepers.

It's cheesy, but it all boils down to who you're grouped with. Like everything, good players make both sides a cakewalk.

I can see where you're coming from, both sides with good people on either one is a cakewalk.

however, i don't think you understood what i meant. i don't intend to suggest that turtles should 1 shot kill, remove all enchants AND beefed up armor, im simply suggesting 300 or so damage that ignores armor (300 being around what it does now) so defy pain warriors cant walk over turtles.

By giving you this list i dont intend to say, MAIK ALL OF DIS STUFFZ HAPPEN! I'm simply giving a few ideas.

NecroticChanter · Feb 24, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

It's balanced. Only things that should be changed are the turtles and gatekeepers. I think the turtles should not have the "hard to interrupt buff". Any interrupt should do it. Make the cast time for the seige attack 1 second...3/4 if necessary. The gatekeepers should be given better bars.

vampirepiggy · Feb 24, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I'm Luxon and think that FA is balanced for what it was intended to be a mission where kurzicks are defending and luxons attack, the siege turtles are fine as they are after they were buffed because of the large influx of monks and rits preventing the gates from being broken. Game-wise i think the 2 siege turtles are better then the juggernaut, but the juggernaut if facing a turtle alone would win and its inferiority is compensated by its high armor allowing healers to keep it alive longer to keep up the green gate longer. The reasoning behind giving the kurzick gatekeepers better builds then the luxon priests is because once they are killed they are gone, unlike the prot spirit luxon monks, which can easily be recaptured by killing a ranger and necromancer. The raw amber shrine npcs for both sides are equally easy to kill with nukes, or for the kurzick mine cleansers spiritual pain. The game begins in favor of the kurzicks but as you play it starts to tip into the favor of the luxons as you whittle away and npcs and push forward through the fort. Luxons have a better attack power, while the kurzicks have more mobility due to the teleporters. The team with the better players, or sometimes less leechers depending on the game, will win. But I'm sure if any changes are made both sides will still continue to complain due to the difference in the nature of both side's goals and the perception that one is easier than the other.

Shayne Hawke · Feb 24, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Fort Aspenwood is structured in a way that you will never have balance. A sway of power one way or the other can happen, but the map itself won't allow for even gameplay.

UnChosen · Feb 24, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

If anything the enchant removal from the turtle needs to be toned down. It makes it difficult to play an ele efficiently because of the need to constantly worry about 45s recharge attunements being striped from a blast to someone half an aggro away. With 2 blasts every 10 sec eles worry more about covering their attunements more than actually try to kill anything.

Ironballs · Feb 24, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I am currently playing Kurzick for the title, but I'm a Luxon at heart.

I must say that for what it is, it seems fair. The Kurzicks certainly have an advantage in some situations, and don't have many fatal flaws. But they are defending, and defenders normally have the advantage.

As stated somewhere above, it is mostly player grouping that affects the game-play the most.

kazi_saki · Feb 24, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

My experience is that almost all the time, people just bait the turtles and the turtles end up attacking just that single person all throughout the game. So when people center builds around the turtles, it becomes moot. Might as well not have a turtle on your side since it won't be doing anything 80% of the game and there is little you can do about it save breaking through the hords of monks and npcs in the fortress just to reach that annoying guy. I say its unbalanced since I used to play as a monk and rit in FA for kurzick and won 90% of the time and when I switched to luxon and tried: going on the offensive, protecting the turtle, and buffing/protecting people. I ended up winning only 1 out of 5 matches usually. :P

Marverick · Feb 25, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Juggernauts walk REALLY slow and don't really do anything, so it's not just turtles that are useless.. IMO just make turtles not shoot at walls and that should be fine.

If the damage is to be armor-ignoring, then it should be toned down a bit.. perhaps 250.

Or perhaps buff both... armor-ignoring damage + not shoot at walls + direct siege attacks towards clumps for turtles, and faster movement (player speed) for juggernauts?

Quote:

If anything the enchant removal from the turtle needs to be toned down. It makes it difficult to play an ele efficiently because of the need to constantly worry about 45s recharge attunements being striped from a blast to someone half an aggro away. With 2 blasts every 10 sec eles worry more about covering their attunements more than actually try to kill anything.

Hi, don't play an ele then.

Seriously, if a class sucks at a particular area, then don't use it there... it's so annoying entering JQ with 3-5 Warriors or Assassins on your team that are utterly useless at capping...

JoeKnowMo · Feb 25, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Too many luxon players bring crappy builds. Too much melee, not enough ability to cap shrines, strip enchants, and take down high armored targets (the aforementioned Defy Pain warrior).

The Kurz seem to do better at their jobs of running amber, tanking, keeping npc's alive, and disrupting the turtle.

The luxons lose, bemoan the kurz tank or monk who held up the turtle, and go back in with the same build expecting a different outcome.

Considering the dominance of the kurz in JQ and FA, one must surmise that the kurz just have better players.

About the only thing that needs tweaking in FA (besides the numerous problems with npc AI on both sides) is another minute or two added to the timer.

Giga_Gaia · Feb 25, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

You say to your readers to 'drop your bonds to your respective sides', and yet all your suggestions are all geared towards improving the luxons without taking a look at the problems on the kurzick side. The luxons' real problem is their dumb AI, and even then they are all much more efficient than kurzick npc's. The coward spike teams that are very lethal but usually run around in circles before actually doing anything, and the shrine monks that can't do any monking are a hindrance to be sure. However, they still have the mine cappers that can cripple runners and live long enough to do some damage/allow for players to rez compared to the ritualists that die before they summon their first spirit(not to mention that they both summon the SAME spirit at the SAME time negating each other).

For the kurzick side, they have npc's that are pretty much completely useless at defending the fort. They will stand inside 5 aoe's and die in 2 seconds; that is if they don't get destroyed by the turtles first. You say the juggernaut is extremely powerful, but how many enemies have you actually seen the juggernaut kill? 90% of the time they are stuck on the stairs trying to reach the turtles while 20 luxons are mobbing it.

I respect that you want to make some balance to FA, as I love that mission as well. But like others have said, it also depends heavily on the players playing there more than anything else. One thing I noticed constantly is that there are always at least 2 melee's on the luxon side. This alone makes them near useless for most of the match since all the npc's there are anti-melee.

EDIT: Yes there are lots of bad luxon players on competitive missions, I just didn't want to be the first to say it :P

isildorbiafra · Feb 25, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Seriously, if a class sucks at a particular area, then don't use it there... it's so annoying entering JQ with 3-5 Warriors or Assassins on your team that are utterly useless at capping...

Please dont generalize. Its insulting. I'm a warrior and absolutely know what i'm doing.

On note: its all about good team synergy. By the way; turtles respawn. Juggs dont! Keep that in mind.

PS: I run defy pain amongst others. There is more to life than capping; like: holding shrines; killing players & npc's; running/ healing and keeping cariers alive.

Plenty of times i've ended up in a team that caps like the best and we lost. Why you might ask? Because no one took the time to escort the carier and clear the way.

Capping is important; but overrated imho.

s73ve_o · Feb 25, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

sorry mate but this kinda pisses me off. This mission is finally much more balanced than previously (for the first 2+ YEARS, FA was generally a near guaranteed with on the luxon side) and now, just because you are not winning as much as you used to you feel it needs to be "fixed" to your liking.

either side can look at problems with AI, skillbars, etc and point out a heap of things that should be fixed, but the thing is in the end they just about even themselves out.

if you really think you are all that disadvantaged now in FA try to imagine how it was like for the Kurzicks before FA finally got re-balanced

UnChosen · Feb 25, 2009, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Hi, don't play an ele then.

Seriously, if a class sucks at a particular area, then don't use it there... it's so annoying entering JQ with 3-5 Warriors or Assassins on your team that are utterly useless at capping...

Which I don't....the point was that the turtles are strong enough as it is with the interrupt resistance and large aoe enchant strip, yet the OP was saying that its too weak because it ONLY removes one enchant. Seriously people need to get the point...

belladonna shylock · Feb 25, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

I've played on both sides since the "turtles remove enchants" update and i must say..one person can determine a win for the luxon side. one person can probably not determine a win for the kurzick side. A lot of luxons want to pvp instead of pve...which is why the tend to fail. All in all, it's very balanced if you take out the variable effects, such as players inability to understand the objective.

I'd even say luxons have it easier if one or two people know exactly what to do.

Giga_Gaia · Feb 25, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

If anything I feel it's the kurzicks that have the disadvantage. Sure they start with lots of npc's but they (the npc's) just rush into 20 enemies one by one and end up being ripped apart in seconds without having done anything. There are so many ways for luxons to stack the map against kurzicks (EoE, MM's and MM griefers, turtle healers, sometimes trappers...), but rarely do I actually see those. Most monks run RoJ, EoE shows up once in a blue moon, and most MM's don't carry any self defense/healing. Also add to the fact that the kurzicks are more organized, and the result is a 90% win ratio for kurzicks.

These are just my observations and experience from spending quite a few hours there, but generally speaking this has mostly been the case from what I've seen.

FoxBat · Feb 25, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Everyone's been over the NPC advantages and foibles. What is always overlooked:

Kurzicks backed into the gate room respawn practically right where they died. Given the short respawn time, that also means they are always fighting together.

Luxons pushing into the gate room have 30 seconds or so of running to do. It takes longer to recover from death, and your forces are more spread out during this time, which leads to more deaths. And luxons lose unless they can push into the gate.

That is a huge advantage to kurzicks. Now there are plenty of other advantages luxons have, but this one is typically overlooked.

Bottom line is that the current combination of factors still yields a ridiculous kurzick win rate, and the wait time for kurzicks to enter a match is likewise ridiculous because luxons know that JQ is a much better deal. Even if Kurzicks don't have players smart enough to run turtles around, the turtles typically do very little to push into the gatekeeper area, because one or two people always bum rush the turtles, occupy their attention dying, respawn and do it again, leaving the NPCs safe. With some pulling you might get around this but that's rarely coordinated in 8v8 randomway.

Back when match time was longer, luxons had the clear advantage despite these difficulties. With that factor diminished though, balance has shifted back to kurzicks, and no amount of NPC-buffing is really going to fix it, unless they make the turtle AI smarter- the turtle walking along and only stopping to fire on NPCs might be an improvement.

I'll also concede that the turtle's enchant-strip range is ridiculous. It should not cover the entire blast radius.

Dr.Jones · Feb 25, 2009, 12:07 PM // 12:07

I really Think that The main problem with Both Fort Leacher and Bot Quarry is that there are WAY to many Bots and Leachers. and all a gm would have to do is go in play a day on each mission and see who is botting and ban acordingly give them all 3 day bans then go in 3 days latter see if there are still bots/leachers and give them 1 week banns then come back in one week see if there are still bots or leachers and ban for 2 weeks then 3 then perma. then just repeat. that would send a clear message to all that leaching and botting is not allowed. also fix the you get dishonner for reporting you hole team because they are all leachers/bots.

Once that problem is taken care of people who play will actually see how balanced or unbalanced it is. and then fixs should be made. also they should dubble the amount of faction you get in ab because theirs no reason to do ab because jq and fa give way more for the amount of time put into it.

Kattar · Feb 25, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Discussed to death in this thread.

Also, this thread violates the guidelines of this forum, specifically:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forum Guidelines

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Do not post "A Few Ideas" threads. If you have more than one idea ---first double check with the search button and the index thread to make sure they're fresh suggestions, and create a separate thread for each one with a relevant title. If you don't feel like creating a separate thread for each suggestion you have, post all of them in the Index of Ideas thread stickied at the top of the forum.

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